Rajiv On Reservation
Read what sonia's late husband has to say on the issue of reservation in his longest speech in the parliament.
Must read for every serious indian who wants to know facts about reservation. Must read for every indian who is sincere about social equality and upliftment of poor.
Rajiv On Reservation . It is clear that this reservation is to benefit rich and powerfuls and to keep poor people poor.
We are coming out with booklet version of this speech to educate general public, congress leaders and sonia gandhi! Book your copy by sending an email to yfehyderabad@gmail.com .
Must read for every serious indian who wants to know facts about reservation. Must read for every indian who is sincere about social equality and upliftment of poor.
Rajiv On Reservation . It is clear that this reservation is to benefit rich and powerfuls and to keep poor people poor.
We are coming out with booklet version of this speech to educate general public, congress leaders and sonia gandhi! Book your copy by sending an email to yfehyderabad@gmail.com .
posted by YFE Hyderabad at 8:47 PM
64 Comments:
How can you be for MERIT and EQUALITY at the same time?
Currently, IITs are selecting 2% of applicants (4000 out of 2 lakh applicants) for admission. You think that is how it should be done and you are fighting to maintain the status quo.
In the current system, mostly upper caste, urban and rich students (with resources to get the best coaching) get these seats.
You want such firm discrimination based on merit. You think that is good for India. You may be right.
State that position boldly and with conviction. Do not mix that with EQUALITY.
You are not being against EQUALITY by insisting on MERIT. But you are wrong if you insist that MERIT alone brings EQUALITY.
You suggest MERIT is the best EQUALIZER. Politicians think Reservation is the best way to bring equality. Both of you are wrong. Both of you are talking about easy and blunt solutions.
EQUALITY is a very complex concept, and very difficult to achieve.
I would say politicians have a little better understanding of this problem and have better ideas to achieve EQUALITY.
This group has not articulated any reasonable ideas so far. Because that is not your concern. Your cocern is to maintian the status quo.
You should change the group's name to Citizens Against Reservation or Citizens For Satus Quo. That way, it will be easy to understand your goals and easy to support you.
Well, you have got it right and you have got it wrong.
Equality does not mean everyone becomes an IITian. However cool that may sound - it is just not practical.
Equality for us means that we want everyone should have the means and the facilities to be able to try for the IIT. Equality means that a person who has studied in Delhi schools and the person who has studied in some obscure place should have the right to appear for IIT. However, whether a person should get into the premier institutions is based on his merit - and believe me there are equally meritious students from all walks of life, from all castes and religions.
Its not a hard concept to understand , only if you open your mind to it.
Politicians have absolutely no idea about how to bring about equality. All they are concerned with is thier next election. If they were so concerned about india, they should have been going to villages and towns to see the situation. However, they only fly from place to place, and when their cars pass through the traffic all the other traffic is stopped. They only visit villages when it helps their cause of relection - like when they have to appear for elections, or when they can get political milage - like in the current famine. Why dont they work to eradicate the famines ? Ans : cause then they cannot get political mileage.
By saying that politicians have a little better understanding, you are just showing how gullible you really are.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Forced equality isn't equality.
Forced equality is a communist methodology which can never be successful and it doesn't bring equality it actually brings faction among individual.
We are fighting to bring equal opportunity to every single person. Equal opportunity means easy access to good quality education. It is our vision. So yourth-for-equality stands for equality and merit at the same time.
Current bill is to attract votes since in higher studies all over india 23.5% OBCs already gets selected without reservation. This means it is only going to benefit 3.5% OBCs and since financially backwards don't get same opportunity they cannot compete with the creamy layer OBCs. If instead 27% reservation was given to financially weak people we might have got more meritious students.
11:44 AM
Reservations – Some Questions and their Answers
*
Q: What is reservation?
The word reservation is a misnomer. The appropriate word for it used in the
Indian constitution is Representation. It is not given to anyone in his
individual capacity. It is given to individual as a representative of the
underprivileged community. The beneficiaries of reservations are in turn
expected to help their communities to come up.
Q: Why reservation?
The policy of reservations is being used as a strategy to overcome
discrimination and act as a compensatory exercise. A large section of the
society was historically denied right to property, education, business and
civil rights because of the practice of untouchability. In order to
compensate for the historical denial and have safeguards against
discrimination, we have the reservation policy.
Q: Were Reservations incorporated by the founding fathers of the
constitution only for first 10 years?
Only the political reservations (seats reserved in Loksabha, Vidhansabha,
etc) were to be reserved for 10 years and the policy review was to be made
after that. That is why after every 10 years the parliament extends
political reservations.
The 10 year limit for reservations is not true for the reservations in
education and employment. The reservations in educational institutions and
in employment are never given extension as it is given for the political
reservations.
Q: Why give reservations on basis of caste?
To answer this question we must first understand why the need for the
reservations has arisen. The cause for the various types of disabilities
that the underprivileged castes in India face / have faced, is the systemic
historical subjugation of a massive magnitude based on caste system having a
religious sanction. Therefore if the caste system was the prime cause of all
the disabilities, injustice and inequalities that the Dalit-Bahujans
suffered, then to overcome these disabilities the solution has to be
designed on basis of caste only.
Q: Why not on basis of economic criterion?
Reservations should never be based on economic status for various reasons as
follows:
1. The poverty prevailing among the Dalit-Bahujans has its genesis in the
social-religious deprivations based on caste system. Therefore poverty is an
effect and caste system a cause. The solution should strike at the cause and
not the effect
2. An individual's Economic status can change. Low income may be taken to
mean poverty. But the purchasing value of money, in India, depends upon
caste. For example a Dalit can not buy a cup of tea even in some places.
3. Practical difficulties in proving economic status of individual to the
state machinery are many. The weak may suffer.
4. In caste ridden India infested with rampant corruption, even for an
unchangeable status like caste, the false "Caste Certificate" can be
purchased. How much easier will it be to purchase a false "Income
Certificate"? So income based reservation is impractical. It is no use
arguing when both certificates can be bought, why caste only should form
basis of reservation. It is certainly more difficult to buy a false caste
certificate than a false income certificate.
5. Reservation is not an end in itself. It is a means to an end. The main
aim is to achieve the active participation and sharing by the "socially
excluded" humanity in all the fields of the affairs of the society. It is
not panacea for all ills, neither it is permanent. It would be a temporary
measure till such time the matrimonial advertisements in newspaper columns
continue to contain the mention of caste.
Q: Should there be a creamy layer criterion or not?
The demand from anti-reservationists for introduction of creamy layer is
ploy to scuttle the whole effectiveness of reservations. Even now out of all
seats meant for SC/STs in IITs , 25-40 % seats remain vacant because it
seems IITs do not find suitable candidates. Just imagine what would happen
if by applying creamy layer criterion the SC/ST middle class, lower middle
class people who are in position to take decent education are excluded from
reservations benefit ! Will the poor among SC/STs be able to compete with
these 'privileged 'students' trained under Ramaiah and at various IIT-JEE
training centers at Kota ?
Of course Not.
This will lead to 100 % seats in IITs for SC/STs going vacant.
Q: How long should the reservations continue?
The answer to this question lies with the anti-reservationists. It depends
on how sincerely and effectively the policy makers which constitute
"privileged castes" people in executive, judiciary and legislature,
implement the reservations policy.
Is it just on part of "privileged castes" people who have enjoyed undeclared
exclusive reservations for past 3000 years and continue to enjoy the same
even in 21st century in all religious institutions and places of worship, to
ask for the timelines for reservations policy?
Why do not they ask, how long the exclusive reservations for particular
community in the religious institutions and places of worship are going to
continue?
The people who have acquired disabilities due to inhuman subjugation for
3000 years will need substantial time to come over those disabilities. 50
years of affirmative action is nothing as compared to 3000 years of
subjugation.
Q: Will not the reservations based on castes lead to divisions in the
society?
There are apprehensions that reservations will lead to the divisions in the
society. These apprehensions are totally irrational. The society is already
divided into different castes. On the contrary reservations will help in
annihilating the caste system. There are around 5000 castes among the SC/ST
and OBCs. By grouping these various castes under 3 broad categories of SC,
ST and OBC, the differences among 5000 separate castes can be abridged. This
is a best way of annihilation of castes. Therefore rather than making
rhetoric about reservations leading to divisions in the society the
anti-reservationists should make honest and sincere efforts to annihilate
castes. Have these people made any efforts towards this direction? In most
of the cases the answer is NO. The people making these anti-reservations
rhetoric, all this time have been enjoying all the privileges that the
Indian caste system offers to the "Privileged Castes". As long as they enjoy
the privileges of the caste system they do not have any qualms regarding it.
But when it comes to making castes as basis for achieving social equality by
providing representations these same people make noises. These are the
double standards of highest order practiced by the 'privileged' people.
Q: Will not reservations affect the Merit?
As regards to how Merit is defined in a very narrow sense and what it
actually means, following is the quote from an article by Prof Rahul Barman
of IIT Kanpur.
"Is merit all about passing exams? After all, are the exams a means or an
end? If the exams are means to look for ability to make better engineers,
doctors and managers, then can there be better methods to look for such
ability? After all in my first engineering class I was told that a good
engineer is the one who can produce the best out of the least resources and
similarly, management is supposed to find one's way in an uncertain
situation – or allocate scarce resources in the most optimal way possible.
If that is so, whatever I have seen of our deprived masses (of which
overwhelming majority belongs to the backward, dalit castes or adivasis),
they have the astonishing capacity to make something productive from almost
next to nothing! For the last few years I have been studying small industry
clusters, like Moradabad brass, Varanasi silk and Kanpur leather. Put
together (all the clusters in the country), they are exporting more than the
IT sector and their cumulative employment will be several times of the
whole of IT industry. In all these clusters they operate with miniscule
resources – small investment, no electricity, forget about air-conditioning,
non existent roads, lack of water, and little formal education. These
clusters are primarily constituted of these so called backward/ dalit castes
and are truly a tribute to the genius that our society is. But in spite of
centuries of excellence these communities have hardly produced any formal
'engineers', 'doctors' and 'managers', and conversely these elite
institutions have not developed any linkages with such industries and their
people. "
Reservations of more than 60 % have existed in the 4 states of southern
India and around 40 % in Maharashtra since last 50 years. On other hand in
the north Indian states the 15 % 'privileged castes' have been enjoying 77 %
of the seats in educational institutions and in employment (assuming that 23
% reservations for SC/STs are totally filled, which is not the case). The
World Bank study has found that all the 4 south Indian states are much ahead
of north Indian states in terms of their human development index. It is a
common knowledge that all the southern states and Maharashtra are much ahead
in fields of education, health, industrial development, in implementing
poverty alleviation schemes, etc. than the north Indian states. This shows
that reservations have indeed helped the southern Indian states in making
progress on various fronts. Whereas lack of adequate reservations is
responsible for the lack of development in most of the north Indian states.
Q: Have existing reservations for SC/STs been effective or not?
The reservation policy in the public sector has benefited a lot of people.
The Central government alone has 14 lakh employees. The proportion of
Scheduled castes in class III and IV is well above the quota of 16 per cent
and in class I and II, the proportion is around 8–12 per cent. So, the
middle and the lower middle class that we see today from the Dalit community
is because of reservation. With no reservation, the entry of these people in
government services would have been doubtful.
The situation is similar in education. An article in the EPW (Economic and
Political Weekly) estimates that there are seven lakh SC /ST students in
higher education and about half of them are there because of reservation.
Reservation has certainly helped but there are limitations in any policy
with the way it is implemented.
So you admit that reservation is for rich reserved class which was discriminated in past by our forefathers and you are criticizing it now so that reservation serves benefit for your future generation.
One question: Being representative how much do you do for your community?
Guruji,
Q: Should there be a creamy layer criterion or not?
So you want meira kumar's son to take advantage of reservation but not poor autowallah's. Here you are showing your true color. For whom you want reservation.
Kreamy layer criteria already exists, so thats no problem. As far as Meira Kumars son is concerned, since he belongs to a scheduled caste and not to OBC community, he can not be denied reservations.
Son of Laloo under creamy layer can be deprived of reservations. Well, the government should try to ensure that supply and demand situation is equalized.
Any one who wants to be a doctor with a reasonable intellect should be able to enter the medical college.
He has to pass the exams and he will be successful only if he has talent.
However, if the upper caste people are bent on browbeating the government and the depressed classes, then there is likely to be a very strong confrontation between the forwards and backwards.
There was, once, a man. A very capable man. He managed people very well.
He had a younger brother. He did a lot for this younger brother. He reserved some contracts for his younger brother. Even though he did not merit it. He reserved a good job in a telecom company which his brother did not bother to live upto. He reserved a flat for his younger brother. He reserved a gun and a license for the gun for his younger brother.
As time went on and his own family grew, he could not give as much attention to his younger brother. He had other members of his family to reserve things for.
His younger brother felt angry. He had developed the belief that he had a right to things. Events followed their course.
I believe minegurujis intentions are clear. We instead of puting Rajiv Gandhi's speech we can put his words.
Really it shows how creamy layer thinks.
Thanks mineguruji we needed your input.
And very good analysis by anonymous.
Parents generally think their children need extra care and they do more than the child deserves and as a result destroys his life.
This is something very common in society and it can only be learnt not explained.
There is a man. He was just a boy not too long ago. He passed 10th class with bare minimum third class marks. His father was
a University Professor of English. Through his influence, he got his son in a good intermediate college. In intermediate, he worked little harder, and got second class marks. His father again used his influence and got him a sports quota seat in one of the best degree colleges in the city. This young man worked harder in college, got first class marks, and got into Central University on his own. He finished Ph. D. from IISc. Later he went to the US and he is now a senior Vice President of a Biotech Company in the US.
This friend of mine got two breaks in his life because of his influential father. I have other friends in villeges and smaller towns, who would have become similarly highly successful if they got one break in their life.
Influencial people (because of their high caste, high position or wealth) are alway in a position to get the best for themselves and their sons/daughters out of the system.
Low caste, rural and poor people get the short end of the stick in our system.
Reservations are one way of correcting this imbalence.
the first obstacle for yfe is obviously to clear such clutter from peoples head...just the kind of things guruji talks of...people have hypnotised themselves into believing things that guruji says.
the opinion polls on various channels..where many people agree with increased quota is proof enough
actually there are diffrent kind of people one type r ready to grab any free gift the others are people genuinely believing that these quotas r for bc upliftment (ha ha ha) remember how a decade ago we genuinely believed that a (new ) party would actually work for general public.
it would be of course futile to ask ppl like guruji ...that if the seats already go vacant..how will increased quota seats b filled. or why they dont do something for upliftment of these people they sooo care about
the point is yfe shd work on plans on how to clear this misunderstanding from peoples brains...
if congress is aiming to get bc votes thanks to this stupid policy...its proof enough of their successsful hypnotism
So the case anonymous has put is related to lack of access of good quality education to all. If you look our aim is to give good quality education to all. Govt is ready to invest 7000 crore for expansion of seats. Can govt provide jobs to everyone who qualifies. 7000 crore is such a big amount govt can open over 20 thousand good quality schools which might have strenghtened roots of these people.
This is contrary to what guruji has said. Guruji is saying give reservation to creamy layer because we are representing underpreviledged backward caste of our society. So needy is someone else and benefit is taken by different person.
I have already mentioned why the benefit won't reach to the needy.
Govt don't provide basic facility to the common. It doesn't provide good road, electricity, good education facility, good medical facility etc and fool people be giving benefit to creamy layer.
http://www.wakeupcall.org/our_goal/our_goal.php#iwatch
we were talking of education for all,please check this site...it already has an alternative education policy...mayb yfe can work on these lines or with these people?
this is true neither will merit bring equality nor will reservation..we need a common cause so that anti and pro people can fight together for real equality
samay
What is the problem if a backward person gets the benefit of reservations, if there is no cut on seats of general category students. DO you think that scars of casteism which has perpetuated for thousands of years has been washed of the collective psyche of the people.
India is not delhi, bombay, madras and bangalore but it comprises of numerous mofussil villages and towns, where the slur of casteism is still alive and kicking.
So, if the governemnt expands education like the telecom sector whats the problem.
If the son of a rich doctor or a rich lawyer is able to pay through his nose, to become a doctor, then what is the problem that son of a backward doctor is able to become a doctor via reservations.
If MIT can have 5000 students in a year on its campus, why cant AIIMS< IITS and IIMS do they same, provided the govt increases the resources.
The problem is that the upper caste people have been used to have their way in this country, but due to changed polity and spread of democracy it has become little difficult keep on doing the same.
Lets find the middle path.
mineguruji said : India is not delhi, bombay, madras and bangalore but it comprises of numerous mofussil villages and towns, where the slur of casteism is still alive and kicking.
Quite correct. So it does not help in getting rid of casteism by providing reservations in these cities does it? The problem is prevalent not in the institutes but in the villages and towns - but the govt is doing nothing to change the situation there.
Dear mineguruji,
Asshole this platform is created by ur fathers for its sons who are merit oriented.Please ask your Caste oriented freiends to create one for bastards like you.
Ur Pappa
Shreyas,Vibhu and Vizeet,
please don't waste your energy and Time on people like MineGuruji.You people are accountable to the future generations.
Regards'
Blue
Dear Guruji,
I agree with you India comprises of Villages and other remote places and i would love to have them with us. But can you please elaborate that
1. Are poors in these remote places are all backward castes?
Answer: Poor has nothing to do with Caste.
2. Do you think poor in these villages get access to primary education?
Answer: Absolutely no. Leave aside the villages, go in any town and see the situation of Goverment Schools. They don't have teachers, they don't have resources, they don't even have buildings. The result of all these children from remote places lose interest in education and drop out from schools.
3. Why the goverment is spending 7K Crores on expanding infrastructure in Higher Educational institutes but when the work is needed at the primary level? Also additionally 2000 Crores will be required annually to maintain this additional capacity?
Answer: Doing work at the primary education involves lot of efforts with no immediate results as well as no Visibility. Political parties in India wants "Sab kuch jaldi-jaldi ho jaaye" and is playing just old British tactics "Divide and Rule".
4. Who will benefit from the current caste based reservation policy?
Answer: Richest of OBCs, SCs, STs. But it will never reach the needy poor people because those people don't have access to primary education, how will they come to Graduation level.
Surely seats need to be increased but the reason should not be caste-based reservation and that can't be done in a single year. Faculty "Ped par nahin ugti". IITs and AIIMs are seriously facing faculty crunch and are working with 70% of approved strength, leave aside the state of Other state universitites and colleges. This increase in seats will cause additional pressure of the faculty as well as resources and this will cause these bright faculties to move to foreign universities/MNCs and taking up position there(For your kind information, the USA universities are also facing same faculty crunch and faculties of IITs/AIIMs will be accepted with much better pay as well as freedom to do research). The effect of all this will be equity dilution of all the colleges in India as well as financial condition of India( Rememeber, we are in Flat world now and are facing a Severe competition with China, Russia for talent).
Don't look for just your benefits, YFE is fighting for a society where nobody ever ask anybody's caste. YFE is fighting for a dream of a developed India where everybody has food, house and access to best education possible.
Jai Hind,
Mohit
Politicians Vs. YFE
YFE "youth" are very angry with politicians. Politicians are stupid and anti-national, anti-equality, anti-poor, and care only for votes according to YFE bloggers and speakers in this forum.
Let us look at a random sample of a few politions and see if YFE is right.
Mahatma Gandhi, a shrewed politicians, brought India freedom without firing a shot.
Nehru, a politician, who built the IITs.
Narsimha Rao, a first non-Nehru/non-Gandhi PM to complete a full 5 year term in office, had the courage to bid good bye to "3% GDP producing socilist" policies and liberized the economy which now grows at 8%.
Vajpayee, the first non-Congress PM, successfully managed a coalition Govt of desperate regional parties, had the courage to announce to the world that India is a nuclear power and it is ready to take the big role it deseves in the world.
Manmohan Singh, not a politicians by most standards, holds the most powerful political position of the land, knows the rural poverty first hand, walked miles to go to the closest high school of their village, got educated in economics from the best universities in the world and runs the Central Govt. now. I think he has a little better understanding of EQUALITY than any one of the YFE members.
Kalam, the head of the highest political office of the land, comes from a remote small town. A visionary, nationalist, and great patriot -his dedication to the education of the yound is only matched by his love for India. I think he has a better understanding of providing equal opportunity in education.
Does YFE membership lives in the same India and not recognize these politicians?
i appologise on behalf of yfe,i will not point out that all ppl u have pointed out are not politicians, i will also not remind u that vibhishan was ravans brother or that a few brothers of kauravs fought on pandav's side, but in 60 yrs on indias independence..and only 6 names..i mean a knowledgeble person like u ,please come up with a few more....politicians r great so finding a few more names wont be that big a problem
I hold Mahatma Gandhi and Nehru in very high spirit and you can't compare today's politicians with Nehru or Gandhi.
For the others
1. Narsimha Rao - 3% to 8% GDP - Real story is Indian government was close to bankrupcy because of socialist norms and were on the verge of lending their gold for food. This lead to opening of markets. Because of long British rule a large population of English speakers was there in India and over capacity creation of Fiber optic cable lead and recession in US economy lead businessmen to do cost cutting and outsource work to India. This lead the initial trigger for 8% GDP growth (Most of the Industries till date grow not from internal markets but by exporting their products) not the Narsimha Rao. It was a forced decision.
2. Bajpayee:- Good PM but weak. Nuclear bombs will not give us our growth. It will be only economic policies. First nuclear tests were carried out in 70s. It is 1950s technology which we tested after 50 years... not a much to be proud word.
3. Manmohan Singh:- Weakest PM we ever had in our history. Just playing a puppet in the hands of leaders of Congress government. I think he will be asking few persons if he can answer his nature calls also. A black spot on the office of High esteem.
4. Kalam:- Not a politician. A scientist and i hold him in gr8 respect. You can't compare him with these politicians.
This speaks the history in 59 years we can count good politicians on fingers and that too with some doubt on their credentials..........................
sometimes i wish that all these institues should be allowed to be tampered with
50% increased capacity in one year magic!
iim iit equivalent to pathetic government schools in 5 yrs ...magic
this will teach all pro people what yfe was crying about
If those names are not good enough, let me tell you about current politicians whom I met in person and had one-on-one discussions. I can count a dozen such politicians, but I will give you three names. I met them at a panel discussion recently and had separate one-on-one chat with them.
Milind M. Deora, (Age 29) MP (Congress) from Bombay South, has set up an NGO (before becoming an MP), Sparsh, that persuaded corporates to help in providing hardware to 100+ Government-aided schools for their IT syllabus.
Madhu Yaskhi (late 40s), NRI lawyer, left his flourishing law practice in Manhattan, NY, and his wife medical practice in New Jersey, to become an MP (Congress) of Nizamabad, AP. He was distressed by the spate of farmers in Nizamabad area and set up a foundation to help people of the area.
Tathagat Satpathy (late 30s or early 40s), MP (Biju-JD)from Dhenkanal in Orissa. He is the editor of the widely circulated newpaper Dharitri. He distinguishes from the first by saying that he is pure Indian, not touched by foreign education, and wears khadi.
These young politicians are from different parties, and from different regions, different backgrounds. All the three are strong supporters of the OBC reservations. They all see the need for affirmative action and see the Reservations is the best mechanism to achieve the goals of an enlightened affirmative action. The young Deora went on to say that it is bad idea to limit the affirmative action to 10, 20 or 30 years, and should be continued as long as needed.
A correction: Madhu Yashki is not late 40s. He is in late 30s or early 40s.
chill soon ull have a few more names to add to the list...yfe supported political parties candidates. anyway good people are available in all professions.
this is not a platform to debate politicians.
but yes even these good politicians will not stand for what their heart knows is right...and u cant blame them alone...such people u'll find all over the place..,some of them are called yfe critics
So, anonymous you are again showing your true colours, my dear upper caste chauvinistic pig.
The attitude and language used by you is chracteristic of all the upper caste people, moderates and hard core both. All of you basically believe that you are the chosen ones to civilize this country and its a burden upon you that has bestowed by god.
Well, your anger is justified because you people are going to lose the monopoly of thousands of years.
I could have answered you in the choicest of abuses but dont feel like doing it. Poor you.
Dear Guruji,
Your expression truly reflects how divisive the reservation policy based on caste is, which forced a educated people like you to make use of abusive language. Then think how much divide it will create in rest of the society who is not so well educated. So is this policy trying to bridge the gaps of casteism or increasing it? Think with a clear mind and your heart and you will surely reach a conclusion soon.
I would like to re-iterate that YFE is not against any caste. We oppose the current reservation policy based on caste because it never reaches the needy people irrespective of their caste. We want a society where there is just one identity and that is "I am Indian".
-Thanks,
Mohit
Dont waste time on mineguruji !!
1.If he is student ,he will get addmissioms with Quota even if he scores Negative Marks.
2.If he is in Job,he will get promotions even he is busy producing Kids.
3.If he is politicain,Political Prties can't deny him Ticket.Even Constituecy is reserved for them
4.If he is none,he can do back to traditional BHANGI Job in Municipal Corp.
Crux is he has nothing to loose.But You people have to struggle and prove your self in Merit.
So dont Mess with such people.
BLUE
All you people are born with merit and depressed classes are devoid of it. Well Mohit I havent abused any one.
Just listen to what anaonymous says, as far as dividing India is concerned, when was it united tell me.
Exactly Guruji, that's my point is. I strongly believe that what anonymous said is for sure wrong. But both of you are quite educated. Right. The reservation row caused both of you to come and fight each other. So did this bridged the gap or widened it. YFE is saying "No to Reservations" because it strongly feels that any special causes based on caste will be injustice to the needy people. YFE wants to remove Caste identity and politicians want to introduce it again and again by these ways for their Vote bank politics. YFE wants that benefits reach to the needy people not based on a birth right. Is there anything wrong with that thinking? We need you people to stop being used in hands of politicians and join hands with us and work toward betterment of India else i don't see the day far away when India will divided based on caste, religion.
Choice is yours - A developed India with no caste identity except "Indian" or an India divided based on Caste, Religion.
Folks,
Please keep the debate healthy. Dont swear on the message groups otherwise I will need to enable moderation in comments settings.
You may be getting frustrated with the viewpoint of a few people, but it does not mean that under the guise of anonymity you can say anything.
yfe has to beware of people : on the one hand like mine guruji ..on the other yfe supporters who have a tendency to get into uppercaste vs backward class debate. we genuinely need to educate people what yfe stands for. any ideas how???
कोई पैसे वाला पीछडा नहि होता।
कोई गरीब अगडा नही होता।
एक I.A.S. को मदद नहि चाहिये।
एक नेता को मदद नहि चाहिये।
गरीब को बिजली पानी ओर घर चाहिये।
पढ सके एसी स्कुल चाहिये।
पढाने आये एसे शिक्षक चाहिये।
5000 पेसे वाले बच्चो का फ़ायदा
50 करोड गरीबो का नुकशान है।
8000 करोड से जितने स्कुल बन सकते है
उससे गरीबो का ज्यादा फायदा है
यह अमीरो का गरीबो के नाम पे गरीबो पे
अत्याचार है. YFE गरीबो के साथ है
Ham chahte hain ke uppercaste garibon ko bhi reservation mile. Unhe bhi aap jese padne ka mauka mile.
Hindostan main jitne marzi skool kholie, casteism ke bahar nahin aapyenge.
Yeh hamara jivan hai, yahi hamari niyati hai.
Yes to more schools more medical colleges and yes to reservations.
mohit u are reasonable, but it is impossible to cleanse the Indians of caste psyche, it is in our genes. The suffering of thousand of years cant be effaced by YFE.
Particulalrly, when it is opposing reservations in a very unfriendly manner with the help of a biased media, which instead of leading to healthy discussion, spewed venom. Now the positions are fixed and battle lines drawn.
गुरुजी,
वही आप का जीवन है, वही आप की नियती है
क्योंकी उसी से आप की रोजी रोटी चलती है
हम नही पुछते दोस्त बनाने से पेहले उसकी जात
नहि पुछते उसका मजहब नहि पुछते उसका काम
You are such a hypocrite. Why dont you ask reservation for OBCs in
1. Parliament
2. Assemblies
3. In National Parties
ask them to do it fro themselves first then implement on others. What kind of leaders are they?
good reply shreyas....i appreciate it.yah, if politicians really want to uplift obc's then they have to implement in politics first....like reserving party presidentpost for them....and prime minister or minister posts for them....then we can understand their stand.sonia gandhi,manmohan singh and arjun singh should resign and give the way to any obc;s person if they are that concern...
Shreas good poem, mate. But wait, who told you we are not going to get 27 percent or more seats in parliament, the national parties and assembly.
This is just the start my brother, just wait and see.
We are going to have half of judiciary from depressed clases and rest from general category, which will also comprise of creamy layer OBCs.
The South of India is already controlled by the depressed classes, Madhya Pradesh is ruled by an OBC, Bihar also an OBC, Uttar Pradesh also is ruled alternately by Brother Mulayam or Behn Mayawati.
Dont, worry the day is not far when the corporte India will also get suitable represenation of OBCs and SC/STs.
As far as making friends is concerned ak yourself and your friends, how many sc/st and OBC guys are your friends.
If any ha married in the depressed clases or muslims.
It is very easy to write poems, but very difficult to make a sacrifice, even though the interests of you guys are safe and sound.
Hello Mineguruji,
Why you are so irritated? If govt is with you why are you wasting time discussing with us? So much anger is not good for your health.
Why don't you take rest? Everyone in YFE is thinking for the country's bright future. We don't appreciate comments from selfish people like you.
Dear Guruji,
I can only pity you after hearing your thoughts. I don't know what will be the solution of this caste-politics, i don't know what will happen to this nation. But it is for sure that India will never be developed nation and will start its downward journey very soon because of people like you who think on the caste lines and always try to make your own chapatis by burning your brother's home.
I think I should start selling my shares in Indian markets and explore overseas markets because "Jab tak aap jaise log is desh mein hain, tab tak is desh ka kuch nahin ho sakta. India shining story is just a myth".
Wish you a good luck. Hope "aap apni aatma ki aawaz jaldi hi sunenge".
Brahmins and Banias ruled India for thousands of years, and India could not develop. When Europe was in throes of renaissance, the Brahmins forbade the Indians to cross the seas , as it would pollute ones caste and religion.
The Banias also colluded with the East Indian Company and sold this country for some lakh rupees.
The less said about Rajputs, the better.
So, Anonymous, who is responsible for India's backwardness.
Just ask yourself and you will get the answer.
You may pity me or us, who cares.
I am not irritated Vizeet, but just calling a spade, a spade.
guruji,
thanks. btw most of my frds during my college days were from obcs and sc/st and they still are my friend.
my ex-girl friend was also obc. we are not like you. and we are proud of it.
we are proud of fact that we belogs to new india. india which believes in true equality. may be u will never understand it. it requires different level of thinking, spiritual awakening, openness of thought.
that is not possible because you have your vested interest in the reservation system. only if u could think in best interest of india.
india wasnt poor becuase of particular caste it was and it is becuase of traitors like you who divide and sell their mother for their own benefit. dont worry we will fight u guys everywhere.
if u will come and see what are the other activities we are involved in you will come to know what we are and what we stand for.. but only if u had best interest of country at heart.
we also know that you are not going to change your stand. but we enjoy talking to someone who is as rigid and as selfish, ignorant and having as much of vested interest in current system as politician it makes us stronger and justifies and strengthen our belief that we are fighting for the right cause..
u keep coming here.. we need people like you for our motivation
mineguruji said :
"Brahmins and Banias ruled India for thousands of years, and India could not develop. When Europe was in throes of renaissance, the Brahmins forbade the Indians to cross the seas , as it would pollute ones caste and religion.
The Banias also colluded with the East Indian Company and sold this country for some lakh rupees.
The less said about Rajputs, the better."
Well, my question to you is : What were you guys doing at that time ? Its written in the Gita that inaction is also a sin. So, dont blame others for your own sins.
As far as making friends is concerned ak yourself and your friends, how many sc/st and OBC guys are your friends.
I have a couple of very good friends from the 'categories'. The only way I know about it is cause it is on our registeration when we join college. Did it make any problems in our relationship - zilch. I went to one of my friends wedding in dec last year.
One of my cousin is married to a muslim.
So what are you going to do now ? Both Shreyas and I have replied in the affirmative. But I have a feeling that you have a blind hatred and will continue to demean people (as shown by your recent post on Dr Venugopal). For you it does not matter how to make the country better , but all that matters is a selfish need to be one up on others. How are you any different from the brahmins/banias/rajputs that you have an angst against ?
I don't have many close friends. My best friend is yadav. I had very good friendship with jats and Muslims.
My father has Muslim sister and so I have 6 muslim sisters and one brother. They come on Rakhi and normally my parents goes to them on eed.
My father owns photo-studio. She needed to get snaps for college admission and so my father made her his sister to take snap. And we have strong 30 years long family relationship.
Mineguruji, we are not trapped in prejudice like you are.
Wow, so, many great people here, who represents the great Indian unity in diversity.
I am also enjoying this bout mates, really enjoying it, because my resolve to oppose the upper caste hegemony strengthens as we slug it out.
As far as who sold his mother to foreigners is concerned, i would like to remind you of some things which happened in the past.
Starting from the Britishers, i think you must be remembering Jagat Seth, Rai Durlabh and Mir Jafar, all upper castes people, who sold India at Plassey.
Never in the history of humankind has so few people sold the interests of so many people.
Just for sake of few dimes, the rich upper caste bankers of Bengal sold the future of India.
Such instances are the rule.
Going a little back, the Rajputs sold themselves to Mughals as Akbar married a Rajput princess and ruled India with their help.
Mahmud Ghazni and Mohammed Ghauri raped India and killed people at will, because the Brahmin and Rajput rulers proved to be idiots.
Still back, Jai Chand sold his mother to perhaps some upper caste guys and kept watching her being molested, while Prithvi Raj Chouhan cried for help.
As far the slothful and lazy Shudras are concerned, they were always meant to serve the upper caste Hindus and not meant to fight wars or rule the country.
However, whenever a Shudra ruler has become the ruler of India, India has become rich and powerful.
Perhaps , you must be knowing that Mauryas were Shudras or werent they.
A European has written a story about casteism in UK, and it reals so much of your enlightenment.
Caste divide in UK Indian communities rampant, claims report
By Hugh Muir
They are communities that live together, look alike and share a common background. To the uninitiated, there is no discernible difference. But a report will today claim that many Indian communities in Britain are blighted by caste discrimination. Researchers detail claims that many of the 50,000 Dalits in the UK - once known as India's lower-caste "untouchables" - suffer discrimination from other castes in terms of jobs, healthcare, politics, education and schools.
In a report likely to provoke bitter controversy, researchers were told how couples who marry outside their own caste face "violence, intimidation and exclusion". The study, No Escape - Caste Discrimination in the UK, focuses on domestic discrimination, although campaigners are also trying to force British firms with commercial interests in India to outlaw practices unfair to Dalits. The government has promised to consider the issue in forthcoming legislation and to look at claims of discrimination against lower-caste Gurkhas in the British army.
David Haslam of the Dalit Solidarity Network, who organised the research, said the group had spoken to 130 people for the study. "Dalits across the UK felt that within the Indian community, their identity was based on caste and that the caste system was very much in operation." He said respondents called for caste discrimination to be addressed in schools as part of the national curriculum and for the establishment of more temples open to worshippers of all castes. Eighty-five per cent urged the UK authorities to "work towards the elimination of caste discrimination".
Jeremy Corbyn, MP for Islington North and a Dalit Solidarity Network trustee, said he was aware of caste discrimination abroad but was "horrified" to "realise that caste discrimination has been exported". He added: "This is an issue which the government and all those concerned about good community relations need to address."
The former mayor of Coventry, Ram Lakha, told researchers how he faced discrimination from upper-caste voters when seeking election in a largely Indian ward. "During campaigning I was told that I would not get people's vote as I was a chamar [a derogatory name for Dalits]. So I filed my nomination in a non-Asian constituency and was able to win." He said it was customary for the Indian community to honour each new mayor - yet his achievement had not been recognised in that way. "Everyone in the Indian community knows how things are. It is there, and it will take a long time to die out. I recently discovered from my children that they suffered difficulties at school. It is only now, because the issue is being raised, that they chose to tell me. Given everything that has happened, I am very proud and thankful to God for what I have gained."
Harbans Lal Virde, general secretary of the west London religious association Buddha Dham, said he also faced workplace difficulties. "The non-Dalits in my community objected to my promotion and did not support me in my work. They did not like me as a supervisor. The non-Dalits presume that 'chamars' are good for nothing." One respondent, who asked to remain anonymous, said it was difficult to confront the problem. "At work there is no open discrimination; it is usually discreet. Most of the businesses are small - if you complain, the person who will listen to your complaint is from the higher caste, so no action is taken."
Researchers say some barriers are breaking down. In India, Dalits and non-Dalits rarely eat together, but 81% of those questioned said the restriction did not usually apply here. Piara Khabra, MP for Ealing Southall, accused researchers of exaggerating the extent of problems: "It is a big issue in India, but not here. There is a broader community and different traditions. People live happily together." He said many complainants may claim caste discrimination mistakenly or for political reasons. "I am the MP and people come to me who are from the lowest castes."
In one employment tribunal case alleging discrimination based on caste, a factory worker claimed he had been unfairly disciplined at work and then dismissed because non-Dalits complained about him. In another, a healthcare worker claimed he was victimised when his supervisor, who had been friendly, discovered his caste.
Dear Guruji,
You know what your problem is. "You look backwards in time and then make your opinions". We as youth of India see what lies ahead and then make our opinion. History isliye hoti hai ki ham purani galtiyaan dobara na dohrayen, isliye nahin ki 100 saal tak unhone ham par julm kiya to 100 saal tak ham unse badla lenge. Is tarah se to na kabhi khushhali aayegi aur na kabhi barabari, kyunki yeh soch sirf ek cheez reflect karti hai aur woh hai "badla", "maar-kaat". Aaaj aapka, kal aapke opposition ka. Britishers ruled us for 200 years, so should we attack their nation now and rule their nation for 200 years. How does it makes sense? Past agar past hi rahe to accha hota hai na ki use present mein dohraya jaaye.
YFE hates this looking backwards. YFE thinks you should look forward, make your ways, explore new things instead of sticking with old things. Walking with looking backwards can only do one thing that you will collide with something and fall....
Beautiful reply Mohit.
Mineguruji just elaborate how Maurya became ruler when he was shudra at the time when shudras were untouchables, were only to serve upper castes.
This shows something is wrong about your understanding about casteism in india at the time of Chandragupta Maurya.
Maurya was son of the Nanda king Sarvarthasiddhi by a wife named Mura, daughter of a Vrishala (shudra).
His name is Chandragupta because he was chhatriya. Caste wasn't based on Birth.
You ought to look forward mates, because all your brothers, sisters, aunts and uncles are economically, politically, socially and intellectually empowered.
They may have done so because they may have been hardworking, intelligent, innovators and best in whatever they did.
But, the backward and depressed classes to which i belong are at least hundred years behind the upper caste elite society which is comprised by you people.
We may be backwards due to some inherent faults in our genetic system, perhaps we are lazy, slothful, laggards,have low IQ and EQ, keep on producing children thus adding to your burden also.
As such, we have to look backwards, into the past, so that we may be able to discern the reasons, why we are still the scum of this country.
why, how, what and where of our backwardness lies in our past?
Now, this situation creates a fact-value dichotomy.
You guys are progressive and look forward to a bright future, on the contrary, we have a retrogressive and backward looking outlook.
This is going to create great trouble in future.
As far as the contention that we should not repeat the history of the past, i must say that it is for the upper caste elite India to amend the mistakes committed by it.
Casteism is perpetuated by the upper caste people because it gives them immense privileges. Its high time that they should stop being casteist.
Secondly, democractic polity has empowered the depressed classes and this must be understood by the upper caste bretheren.
So, stop being hegemonic.
As far as attacking Britain is concerned, India cant even tame Bangladesh and SriLanka, forget them.
Brother, Chandra Gupta Maurya, uprooted the Nandas and he was in no way related to them.
Most of the scholars opine that he was a shudra.
Well, since he was a great man, how could he be a shudra.
Because, in India they can just be hewers of water and sawyers of wood.
mineguruji get your history right.
His mother was daughter of Shudra.
Little mistake Chandragupta Maurya was son of Maurya who was son of Mura. So he was grandson not son of Mura.
We may be backwards due to some inherent faults in our genetic system, perhaps we are lazy, slothful, laggards,have low IQ and EQ, keep on producing children thus adding to your burden also.
I am not able to understand how caste is related to genetics.
I am not able to understand how caste is related to genetics.
I think they will take any excuse to show how backward they are and then demand reservations.
FROM GURUJIYou ought to look forward mates, because all your brothers, sisters, aunts and uncles are economically, politically, socially and intellectually empowered. END
Let me tell you guruji, when my grandfather moved from Pakistan at the time of division, he didn't had a penny in his pocket. He worked hard, my father worked hard and then i worked hard to clear JEE from a district where there were no teachers, no coachings. I was declined educational loan from banks because we didn't had any security deposit. I am proud of my family because we got here by ourself not by some support of crutches in form of reservations. And i am proud of my friends at YFE who are fighting for a society where you can get resources, scholarships, free books as and when needed for all sections of society and not reservations which do good to no one but to richest of a perticular class because poor of those calss can't afford to reach that step where reservations become applicable. Rs 7000 Crores if spent in remote places and villages to establish libraries and distribute scholarships will do more good to nation than a filthy and easy reservation step. But why would politicians take a low visibility and high effort work. Reservation is just easy to implement and give good visibility.
Well as far as history is concerned, vizeet, just find out who the Nandas were.
Nandas were the destroyers of Kshatriyas and they established first indian political empire.
Here's a briefing, the source is wikipedia, but if you dont trust it i can froward you other sources as well:
Nanda dynasty is said to be established by an illegitimate son of the king Mahanandin of the previous Shishunaga dynasty. Mahapadma Nanda died at the age of 88 and, therefore, he ruled the bulk of the period of this dynasty, which lasted 100 years. The Nandas were followed by the Maurya dynasty.
The first Nanda, the Mahapadma Nanda has been described as the destroyer of all the Kshatriyas. He defeated Ikshvakus, Panchalas, Kasis, Harhayas, Kalingas, Asmakas, Kurus, Maithilas, Surasenas, Vitihotras, etc.,. He expanded his territory till south of Deccan. The last of the Nandas was Dhana Nanda.
The Nandas who usurped the throne of the Shishunaga dynasty were of low origin. Some sources state that the founder, Mahapadma , was the son of a Shudra mother, others that he was born of a union of a barber with a courtesan.
Nandas were the first of a number of dynasties of northern India who were of non-kshatriya origin.
Caste, race, genetic and environment
The realtionship between caste, genetics and individual IQ is very much there, since it has not been researched in India few people if at all are aware of it.
However, the US and other European countries have done a lot of work in this field.
As far as the consensus among intelligence researchers is that IQ differences among individuals of the same race reflect (1) real, (2) functionally/socially significant, and (3) substantially genetic differences in the general intelligence factor.
A consensus also exists that average IQ differences among races reflect (1) real and (2) significant differences.
However, it is a matter of debate whether IQ differences among races in a given country are (3a) entirely environmental or (3b) genetic.
According to these studies Black-White-East Asian differences in IQ, reaction time, brain size and other physiological variables (such as skull structure, and degree of convolution of the brain) in the United States and a few other developed countries (e.g. UK, Japan).
Larger brain size and higher IQ of East Asians than Whites is a challenge for the culture-only theory. Genetics are known to influence brain structure (Thompson et al. 2001) and some aspects of cognition (Berman and Noble 1995).
Brain size correlates with intelligence (McDaniel 2005), and that correlation is mediated entirely by genetic factors (Posthuma et al. 2002).
Studies suggesting that IQ heritability and gene-environment interactions within races are the same for Blacks and Whites. That is, no race-specific statistical factors, such as an effect of White racism, have been identified in such analyses. The IQ gap exists even among middle- and upper-class Black and White families where within-race heritabilities are high and shared family effects are near zero.
American Blacks have a lower average IQ than Hispanic and Native American groups, which are more socio-economically deprived. For example, the Inuit, who live in the Arctic, have higher average IQs than North American Blacks (Berry 1966; MacArthur 1968) despite being extremely poor (Vernon 1965; Vernon 1979).
Ashkenazi Jews have often been persecuted and discriminated against, but they still display the highest average IQ of any ethnic group, as well as SAT scores higher than those of non-Jewish Caucasians. Rowe 2005, pp. 67-68 argues that this counters arguments that depressed IQ scores of African Americans are due to discrimination or prejudice. Similarly, Jensen 1998b, p. 510, points to the examples of Chinese, Japanese, Jews, and East Indians, stating that they have been minorities, discriminated against, or even persecuted, yet do not do poorly on g-loaded tests. Murray and Herrnstein 1994 make similar arguments.
In addition to the genetics, there are some cultural factors also which have been identified by the experts as reasons for the low IQ and backwardness of Americans.
Cultural explanations
Many anthropologists have argued that intelligence is a cultural category; some cultures emphasize speed and competition more than others, for example. During WWI African-Americans from the north tested higher than those from the south. This could be because African-Americans in the north had received more formal education (see Race: Science and Politics, written by Ruth Benedict in 1940). Thousands of ethnographic studies indicate that innate capacities for cultural evolution are equal among all human populations. The American Anthropological Association has endorsed a statement deriding all studies of race and intelligence .
It has been suggested that Black culture disfavors academic achievement and fosters an environment that is damaging to IQ (Boykin 1994). Likewise, it is argued that a persistence of racism reinforces this negative effect. John Ogbu[1] has developed a hypothesis that the condition of being a "caste-like minority" affects motivation and achievement, depressing IQ. However, Arthur Jensen has criticized these arguments on the grounds that they cannot explain the higher scores of East Indians and East Asians.[2] Even proponents of the view that the IQ gap is caused partly by genetic differences, such as Arthur Jensen, recognize that non-genetic factors are likely involved. Indeed, one author has compiled a list of over one hundred possible causes of the Black-White IQ gap.[3] These include the following:
lack of reading material in the home
poor cultural amenities in the home
weak structural integrity of the home
foreign language in the home
low preschool attendance
no encyclopedia in the home
low level of parental education
little time spent on homework
low parental educational desires for child
low parental interest in school work
negative child self-concept (self-esteem)
low child interest in school and reading
However, such factors have not been found to have an effect on IQ that lasts to adulthood among members of the same race (see below).
The above comment is a balanced view taking into consideration both sides of the coin, so that my firends do not accuse me of being partial and one sided.
You may atleast agree that your higher intelligence is partly perhaps due to both genetic and environment factors.
The depressed in India have lost on both counts, genetic as well as environmental.
dont worry guys this self proclaimed guruji is gonna be bashed by backward class people..before we ppl get a chance..he changes tracks like anything..now bc's are supposed to be intellectually backward too..he obviously will go to any length to prove his point.
but then again we need people like guruji...the more venom he spills ..the more united we get
lol, anonymous, you angry mate. I just wanted to tell that there is inherent relationship between caste and intellect, which is based partly on genes and partly on environment.
So, where is the venom, its just a simple argument putforth by me.
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